Hey Willie,
The problems connected with sexuality that the Episcopal Church is going through is but the tip of the iceberg. Ultimately, they have a problem of authority. Since they are structured as a democratic church (the Episcopal Church's structure was used as the pattern for the US government, with its Senate and House of Representatives, plus a President), at the end of the day they have no way to resolve doctrinal or practical disagreements. So their bishops can do outrageous things such as appointing an openly gay bishop, or promoting rank heresy (Google Bishop Jack Spong's suggestions for a new reformation to see what I mean) and no one has the power to say "That's enough!" "No more." So they are in the midst of a huge crisis. It will most likely result in the complete fragmentation of the American church.
Tom
Tom Cabeen
JoinedPosts by Tom Cabeen
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39
Tom Cabeen to be interviewed on TV
by Nathan Natas inposted by jimwhitney on sat - may 3 - 5:25pm: .
in reply to: tom cabean to be interviewed on cable tv posted by jimwhitney on sat - may 3 - 5:25pm:.
posted by flatlander on sat - may 3 - 6:08pm: .
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Tom Cabeen
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39
Tom Cabeen to be interviewed on TV
by Nathan Natas inposted by jimwhitney on sat - may 3 - 5:25pm: .
in reply to: tom cabean to be interviewed on cable tv posted by jimwhitney on sat - may 3 - 5:25pm:.
posted by flatlander on sat - may 3 - 6:08pm: .
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Tom Cabeen
Hi See,
Gloria and I have made our journey together. We are good friends and we talk about things all the time. Gloria is a deeply religious but intuitive person, whereas I am more analytical, studious and pragmatic. She wanted to leave Bethel because of how people were treated. She just felt that something was wrong. I wanted to leave because I became convinced that they were not who they said they were, after reading a letter from Carl Olof Jonsson, which was later made into a book called "the Gentile Times Reconsidered." But our change of opinion about the WTS happened for both of us at just about the same time.
We both shared in hosting a discussion/support group for former JWs. She eventually suggested that we should move out of the ex-JW atmosphere and associate with other Christians, to expand our horizons. About the same time, I wanted our boys to have companions that at least shared our basic Christian moral and ethical values. We received a mailing from a church looking to increase membership, and we both attended there. A year or two later, she found another church she liked better, because it had much better youth programs, and I was happy to move there, as nothing was holding me to the first church.
I eventually joined that second church (Baptist) but she never did. She wasn't comfortable joining a church officially, although she was active in Bible studies, taught Sunday School, etc. After reading the early Church writings, I wanted to attend an Anglican/Episcopal church. She agreed, and we did. We both liked it. We didn't have to join there. If you give money to them, you are "on the list". :-) That was our introduction to "Catholic-style" liturgical worship.
We loved the Episcopal liturgy and the local parish was wonderful, but the Episcopal church here in the US has really serious problems. I had started reading materials about the Catholic church, and sharing some of the things I learned with her. I liked what I found, but knew that I had learned as much as I could from the outside. I needed to be inside to continue learning about the Catholic church. But we both liked where we were, and I did not pressure her to make another move. There was no rush. Eventually, she observed many of the same things I did, and suggested that we go through the Catholic RCIA program. I agreed. (We did an abbreviated version of the program.) We both liked what we found and were confirmed as Catholics.
Each time we made a change, it has been a matter of us discussing things and coming to mutual agreement. Sometimes the initiative for a change was mine, sometimes it was hers.
Tom -
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Ex-Jehovah's Witness on Catholic TV May 19th
by jschwehm intom cabeen, former jehovah's witness bethel elder and pioneer will be interviewed on ewtn's "the journey home" on his conversion to the catholic church on may 19th.
you can read tom's story at:
http://www.catholicxjw.com/
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Tom Cabeen
Hi Blue,
Just a slight correction: The Catholic Answers website is at http://www.catholic.com, not http://www.catholicanswers.com.
Tom Cabeen -
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Ex-Jehovah's Witness on Catholic TV May 19th
by jschwehm intom cabeen, former jehovah's witness bethel elder and pioneer will be interviewed on ewtn's "the journey home" on his conversion to the catholic church on may 19th.
you can read tom's story at:
http://www.catholicxjw.com/
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Tom Cabeen
Hi Blondie, Jim and all,
I just thought it might be a propos to mention to all of you that what drew me to the Catholic Church was not an analysis of her doctrines or practices. What drew me was hard historical evidence that she was the legitimate descendant of the church founded by the apostles; the same church, all grown up. I confirmed to my own satisfaction that all the essentials that were there at the time of the apostles are still in place.
That was not the first time I had come to a church based on historical evidence. The first church I came to for that reason was the Anglican/Episcopal church, which I began attending after reading the early church writings. It was historical data, not doctrines or scriptural texts, which made me come to the conclusion that the Anglican church had once been a part of the Catholic church (Bede, in particular) and that at the time of the Reformation, had made a complete break with the Catholic church (Belloc and Eamon Duffy, in particular), losing her legitimate apostolic succession in the process.
That is why the first mass we ever attended at our parish was on the day Gloria and I were confirmed as Catholics. We were with an Episcopal church, where I was a choir member and soloist. I had agreed to stay with the choir and sing until the end of the choir season at the beginning of June. My wife Gloria and I were confirmed on June 9, 2006. (We felt no reluctance. We had based our decision on verifiable facts, supported by the evidence of those who had made the same journey before us. It was a bit like prepaying for a month in Hawaii without first having to go there to make sure it is really the kind of place where one might want to spend a vacation.)
When we were confirmed, we were asked if we accepted the beliefs listed in the Apostles' Creed (Google it if you are not familiar with it). They asked about each one separately. I had no problem at all with any of these teachings. At the time I was confirmed, there were still a number of Catholic doctrines which I did not understand very well. There still may be. The ones I have studied since then I have found to be logical, scriptural (based, of course, on the Catholic interpretation of Scripture), and strongly rooted in history, that is, having been widely believed, in some form or other, right back to apostolic days.
I still have much to learn about Catholic teaching and practice. But I can say this about each "new" (to me) doctrine I have studied since my initial interest in the Catholic Church: I have been both surprised and pleased to learn the extent to which each one fits neatly into the Catholic (and early Christian) understanding of Christ's teachings, how they urge one toward holy living, how logical and scriptural they are, and how widely accepted they have been by people who are obviously godly men and women, based on the corpus of their writings and the record of their actions (the saints). But in the meantime, as we study, Gloria and I are associated with a community of faith in which we are growing in Christ at a much greater rate than we ever did prior to this, whether on our own or in association with other faith communities.
But it would not be appropriate to say that I examined all Catholic doctrine in detail, and based on my passing favorable judgment on them, decided to join the Catholic church. In order to do that, I would have to know as much as the Christian Church has learned in two thousand years. It was the obvious shortcomings of that approach that made me reject it and seek a better paradigm for finding the truth about the Christian Church, the historical one.
Your brother,
Tom Cabeen -
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How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle ini don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.
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Tom Cabeen
To CoffeeBlack:
Hi Deb!
I am having to get used to seeing male icons for females and vise versa. I like your suit. Hope you are doing well. -
54
How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle ini don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.
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Tom Cabeen
Seeker4
Was that in New Haven, CT in July of 1980? I think I gave the keynote address at that convention. Shortly after that convention, we left Bethel and that was the end of that. Never spoke at a District Assembly again. Don't miss 'em. Are you still in New England? -
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How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle ini don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.
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Tom Cabeen
I haven't published a conversion story yet on any web site. I've given an in-progress one to a few friends, but have been working on how to tell the story concisely and correctly. I still have a lot to learn, but I may have a brief telling of the story before too long.
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54
How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle ini don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.
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Tom Cabeen
Yes, it is me. Randy and I go back a long way, to the early 1970s. I first talked to Randy about my biblical "discoveries" behind the Wood-Hoe press when I was Pressroom Overseer and he was one of my foremen in the Pressroom at Bethel. We both left Bethel about the same time, in 1980.
Tom -
54
How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle ini don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.
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Tom Cabeen
To GGG:
You wrote: Tom, I've read many of your essays and I have nothing but respect for you. You say that you'd never go back to what you thought you had as JWs. However, when you lost faith in the JWs, you lost the security of having all the answers, knowing you were part of an organization which has God's approval, which points to the Bible as proof of that. Now that you found the Catholic church, you again have the security of having all the answers, of knowing you are part of an organization that has God's approval and points to the Bible as proof of that. Only this time, the claims of being God's people come from the Church which assembled the very book you are pointing to as proof! Logically, they would fit the bill.
The proof of the identity of the Catholic church is not primarily biblical, for the very reason you point to. I believe the Bible to be true on the Church's authority, not the other way around. The Bible, authenticated and viewed purely as an historical document, describes a group of people who believed that they had had an encounter with the very Son of God. Other historical documents corroborate the teachings of this man, and also describe how firmly they were believed by so many people, and why these people believed them to be true. They also describe that this man taught that he would found a church that would last until his second coming. I can document historically that a church has been in existence since the first century, and that her teachings have been essentially unchanged for nearly two millennia. The leaders of this church have stated authoritatively that certain books are authentic and inspired. We now call those books the New Testament. So that is why I believe the Bible to be true.
Another difference for me now is that I view an organization as a human thing, whereas I see the church as an organic thing, Christ's own body, a temple made of living stones, which he inhabits by Spirit. The Catholic Church of today has all the earmarks of being the continuation of what I see described in the New Testament. I can follow her history down through the centuries in the writings of her members, which hold a remarkable continuity and unanimity, even though for most of her history there has been no possibility of anything like the WT's regular output of enforced interpretations coming from one small group of men in one city in the USA.
Hippolytus, writing in the second century, gave a list of the seventy disciples Jesus trained and sent out, where they went and what they did. Nearly all of them became overseers or bishops of cities throughout the ancient world. This would have guaranteed a unanimity of belief and practice, something his contemporary, Irenaeus points to as proof of the catholicity of the early church. This was long before the days of printing and quick communication.
The business-like WT-style governing of an organization was impossible prior to the modern age of rapid communication and cheap printing.
Thanks for your comments!
Tom -
54
How could an ex-Jw become Catholic
by My Struggle ini don't mean this to be offensive to any catholics in any way and believe that they can have true salvation unlike the jw.
also, i know little about the in's and out's of practicing catholicism, as i have never had any interest in being one.
regardless i am always surprised when an ex-jw says that they have found the real truth in catholicism.
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Tom Cabeen
Hi All, I am not a frequent poster here, but have been a member for some time. A friend informed me of this post, and since I was mentioned, I thought I would give a “brief” reply to what is a very good question. How could an ex-JW become Catholic? As might be expected, the answer is more complex when told in its entirety. But I can give some indicators that will at least help you see the main motivators that moved me toward where I am now: I had been trained as a JW to obey the truth no matter how hard, as, for example in the issue of blood transfusions or persecution. I have not rejected that principle, and it has continued to guide me throughout my life. Step one: Reading Carl Olof Jonsson’s letter to the WTS when I was still a loyal JW at Bethel convinced me that WT chronology was fatally flawed. Since I had really put a lot of effort into understanding it, I knew the key role it played in the claims made by the WTS as to who and what they were. Bottom line, they could not be who they claimed to be. So I knew I would have to part company with them, though I knew it would be painful. Step two: After several years as a “freelance” Christian, not associated with any formal fellowship except for a small group of former JWs every few weeks, my wife and I missed regular Christian fellowship and decided to attend a small local church. No particular reason except that it was small and convenient. We later switched to a Baptist church which had a bigger youth program to provide association for our kids. I learned a lot more, and we enjoyed the fellowship, but I found many logical and scriptural contradictions among some of the basic doctrines as taught by evangelicals. Step three: A former JW friend introduced me to the historical writings of the early Christians and convinced me that the church founded by the apostles did not go off the rails at the end of the first century. I began to read their writings extensively and, after some time spent getting my head around their very different perspective on many things, found that not only was their perspective on Christianity more sensible, it was also just as clearly supported in scripture as other “Bible based” versions of Christianity. Step four: We began attending an evangelical Anglican (Episcopal) church, where we were introduced to liturgical worship. Another former JW friend who had become a Catholic described their worship to me, I was struck at how similar it was to the Episcopal worship. I began to investigate the Catholic church more seriously. I had many of the same beliefs about Catholic teachings that many of you have, I’m sure, but I considered each one slowly and seriously. I have a very devout son who is also a scientist, and together we carefully considered the historical, scriptural and logical basis for Catholic teachings which were new to us. They each stood up to, in his words, “intense intellectual scrutiny”. Still determined to follow truth wherever it led, after intense discussions, meditation and praying about it for well over a year, my wife, my son and I all decided (independently) that we should become members of the Catholic church, based only on our research and our faith that God was guiding us through his Spirit. The first Catholic mass I ever attended, with the exception of one or two funerals and a wedding over a period of twenty five years, was on the day we were confirmed as Catholics. All that was required of me to be confirmed as a Catholic was to affirm that I believed the beliefs enumerated in the Apostle’s Creed. I firmly believe them all. We have not found the Catholic church to be what it is portrayed to be by either non-Catholics or dissatisfied former Catholics. I have learned so much. Every day I am more convinced that the fullest expression of the Christian faith is contained in the Catholic Church. I believe that many non-Catholics are also Christians, though, and I do not judge them. But once I began to really study the Catholic faith (something many if not most cradle Catholics have never bothered to do), every day her beauty and the truthfulness of her teachings becomes more evident to me. Can non-Catholics be saved? Yes. But if I have the opportunity to choose the Christian faith in simple outline (Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so) or in rich depth and fullness, why not choose the latter? As for the idea that we have just gone back to what we thought we had as JWs, that is the one thing we will never do. Been there, done that. Never again! However, the problem I had with the WTS was not their claim that God has a people nor that he directs his people, it was their claim to be that people. Their teachings do not support their claims. They are counterfeit. I will be happy to answer any serious questions, either here or in private email correspondence at [email protected]. Tom Cabeen